Interesing tid bits about WWII

Interesing tid bits about WWII

1. The first German serviceman killed in WW II was killed by the Japanese (China, 1937), the first American serviceman killed was killed by the Russians (Finland 1940), the highest ranking American killed was Lt. Gen. Lesley McNair, killed by the US Army Air Corps. . . . So much for allies.

2. The youngest US serviceman was 12 year old Calvin Graham, USN. He was wounded and given a Dishonorable Discharge for lying about his age. (His benefits were later restored by act of Congress)

3. At the time of Pearl Harbor the top US Navy command was Called CINCUS (pronounced 'sink us', the shoulder patch of the US Army's 45th Infantry division was the Swastika, and Hitler's private train was named 'Amerika.' All three were soon changed for PR purposes.

4. More US servicemen died in the Air Corps than the Marine Corps. While completing the required 30 missions your chance of being killed was 71%.

5. Generally speaking there was no such thing as an average fighter pilot. You were either an ace or a target. For instance Japanese ace Hiroyoshi Nishizawa shot down over 80 planes. He died while a passenger on a cargo plane.

6. It was a common practice on fighter planes to load every 5th round with a tracer round to aid in aiming. This was a mistake. Tracers had different ballistics so (at long range) if your tracers were hitting the target 80% of your rounds were missing. Worse yet tracers instantly told your enemy he was under fire and from which direction. Worst of all was the practice of loading a string of tracers at the end of the belt to tell you that you were out of ammo. This was definitely not something you wanted to tell the enemy. Units that stopped using tracers saw their success rate nearly double and their loss rate go down.

7. When allied armies reached the Rhine the first thing men did was pee in it. This was pretty universal from the lowest private to Winston Churchill (who made a big show of it) and Gen. Patton (who had himself photographed in the act).

8. German Me-264 bombers were capable of bombing New York City but it wasn't worth the effort.

9. German submarine U-120 was sunk by a malfunctioning toilet.

10. Among the first 'Germans' captured at Normandy were several Koreans. They had been forced to fight for the Japanese Army until they were captured by the Russians and forced to fight for the Russian Army until they were captured by the Germans and forced to fight for the German Army until they were captured by the US Army.

11. Following a massive naval bombardment 35,000 US and Canadian troops stormed ashore at Kiska, in the Aleutian Islands. 21 troops were killed in the firefight. It would have been worse if there had been any Japanese on the island.

(snip)

If the loss rate is 5% every mission then after 25 missions the total loss is 71%, that is 71% of aircraft failing to return or being written off. Of the men in 88 B-17s from the 8th Air Force lost on raids in July and August 1943 70.3% survived.

So work it out, the killed rate would be, after 25 missions, around 21%, high enough, but not 71%, that is the aircraft loss.

By the time the 8th air force bombers were flying 30 mission tours the loss rates were down well below 5%. Also the original claim assumes all USAAF tours were 30 missions, the loss rates remained fixed and the loss rates were the same across the board, no variation with mission type.

As an aside a 5% loss rate means on average the 25th mission will be flown by crews with an average 13 missions, using a simple replace the losses with green crews model. At 3% loss the experience on the 25th mission climbs to 16.6 missions, at 1% loss rate the average experience becomes 21 missions.

It is known green crews are likely to make the most mistakes so the lower loss rate helps improve the overall experience and therefore the overall effectiveness.

No, what has happened is the aces have been given publicity and those who scored their 1 or 2 kills ignored. Target was the description applied to the new pilots. The USN found the first mission to be the most dangerous and made efforts to shepherd the pilots through it.

Like all occupations there are those who are very good at a given skill, that is not the same as the rest were there for the taking.

So all guns all had tracers with different ballistic qualities to the standard rounds, or are we talking at some 'long range' definition?

The reality is most fighter pilots in WWII never saw the aircraft that shot them down.

I really like the idea the enemy was busy watching to see if a particular aircraft suddenly fired an all tracer burst.

(snip)

This is an interesting claim, the Germans built 1 Me264, a second prototype was destroyed by bombing in December 1943 and the third most probably abandoned. It was a 4 engined long range bomber, carrying no defensive armament, 4,330 imperial gallons of fuel (30% in self sealing tanks) and a proposed bomb load of around 4,000 pounds.

The initial prototype first flew in December 1942, without the planned engines for a start, so they could at least obtain some aerodynamic data.

In 1943 the Amerika bomber was reassessed and it was felt a 6 engined machine was needed. The Me264 was then reworked into a maritime patrol bomber idea, the second and third prototypes.

The U-120, a type IIB was scuttled in May 1945, never used in combat, no casualties either,
http://uboat.net/boats/u120.htm

(snip)

Going to mention the US indicates it lost 21 men dead, 4 to booby traps and the Canadians 4 men dead all to Japanese munitions in the first 2 days.

All up confirming the island was unoccupied cost the US 313 casualties, the Navy lost 70 dead or missing and 47 wounded when the destroyer Abner Read struck a mine on 18 August.

Geoffrey Sinclair Remove the nb for email.

It depends on how you define serviceman. Were these people serving members of the German or US armed forces, or just volunteers fighting in foregin wars?

Evidence? The only insignia I can find is of a stylized yellow bird on a red background.

This is new info. Can anyone confirm?

Just one of many advanced German aircraft designs that were developed too late to be useful. www.luft46.com has details of many more.

?!?

I heard this story before a few times; sometimes the guys captured were Korean, somtimes Mongolian, sometimes Chinese. Anybody have more info? BTW, it is unlikley that the Germans (or the Soviets) put these men into combat units, more likley the were used as labourers to build defences etc.

More friendy American fire.

Hardly, only a small proportion of fighter pilots in any air force were actually aces. It varied but it was typically that something like 15 or 20% of fighter pilots scored around 30 to 45% of the kills in a given air force or unit.

Probably true that the Air Corps lost more than the Marine Corps. But as for a 71% chance of dying before 30 missions was up that depended on the timeframe and the theater of war. Late in the war or against relatively defenseless areas like cut off Japanese bases in the Solomons the chance of completing 30 or even 50 missions unscathed was pretty good.

Considering that the Me 264 never truly became operational no wonder it wasn't worth it.

Found #9 interesting, so I looked into it. It would appear that U-120 was deliberately scuttled on May 2, 1945 during Operation Regenbogen. Source: http://uboat.net/boats/u120.htm More on Operation Regenbogen here:

Can people stop talking about the 'Air Corps' in WW2? The Air Corps passed into history in June, 1941, when AR 95-5 created the Army Air Force. Calling the AAF the Air Corps is like calling the RAF the RFC.

Chris Mark

Not probably....actually. AAMOF, the 8th AF alone suffered more casualties over Europe than the USMC did world-wide throughout the entire war.

The 45th Infantry Division was organized as a National Guard division in 1923, the first division shoulder patch was the swastika, considered by Indians as a good luck symbol. In 1933 Adolph Hitler adopted the swastika, with only a slight upward tilt from the one worn by troops of the 45th, as an emblem of the infamous Nazi party. This caused the 45th Infantry Division to change its shoulder patch, and in 1939, it was changed to a bright yellow Thunderbird, that resembled another Indian good luck sign on a red background.

See
http://www.omd.state.ok.us/45InfBde/history.htm

Jim Carew

On 12 May 2004 23:45:05 GMT, 'Geoffrey Sinclair'

It's true that the first several missions were extremely dangerous for fighter pilots flying into active combat. During the Battle of Britain, there was no established procedure to update all pilots in regards what worked and what did not work as discovered by the frontline squadrons. The result of this missmanagement was that some replacement squadrons, even late in the battle, were still flying pre-war formations which all frontline squadrons had long since abandoned as being not only unwieldy, but suicidally dangerous.

It was hard enough for untested pilots to understand what they needed to do in combat to keep from being shot down, even experienced instructors, but flying tight 'Vic's' merely provided nicely grouped targets for the marauding Bf109's which nearly always had the advantage of height.

At least twice, replacement squadrons were deployed to 11 Group from the north, wildly enthusiastic to be placed at the front, only to lose 5 or 6 pilots shot down and killed on their very first mission.

It isn't clear why the British did not have some sort of combat evaluation process during the Battle. It may have been some left over peacetime inertia, but it for sure cost them a lot of bright young pilots.

The German fighters pilots actively exchanged information amongst themselves and had adapted the 'finger four' formation during the Spanish war. By the beginning of WWII, the 'finger four' formation was the combat standard for the Luftwaffe fighter squadrons.

At the beginning of the war, the US Navy was still using flights of three, but the passing around of combat information was strongly endorsed by the Navy and information gleaned from the very first combats was passed around both officially and unofficially.

The success of James Thach's self devised 'weave' was quickly adopted by most frontline squadrons and was used by the Navy fighter pilots during the battle for Guadalcanal just a little over a month after Midway, where Thach first attempted it so successfully in combat.

Corky Scott

Hitlers name is spelled A D O L F

The Nazis adopted the swastika at least a decade before 1933. 1933 was when they came to power.

Are there any web-based pictures of US soldiers wearing the swastika patch?

Not quite.

The Air Corps was a branch of the United States Army the same as Infantry, Cavalry, Field Artillery, or any of the others.

It was created by Congress on 2 Jul 1926 as part of The National Defense Act of that year. As it had been established by an Act of Congress it could only be disestablished by an Act of Congress. This didn't happen until 18 Sep 47 with the creation of the United States Air Force.

The Army Air Forces (plural), along with the Army Ground Forces, and Army Service Forces were functional commands drawing units and personnel from all branches as needed to meet mission requirements. The AAF included personnel from other branches (eg, Engineers, Finance, Medical Corps, etc) and the Ground and Service Forces could and did have Air Corps personnel assigned as needed.

During and immediately after the war the use of the term 'Air Force' or variations of it (AAF, USAAF, etc) was preferred and encouraged over 'Air Corps' as part of the public relations drive for a separate service. Even in situations where 'Air Corps' was more technically correct.